To the Tenth Generation: Ray Ortlund

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript

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To the Tenth Generation

Guests: Ray and Jani Ortlund

Release Date: December 16, 2025

Jani (00:00:00):

God has promised: “I want to use your precious family to further My redemptive plan. Your family is crucial in My plan to redeem My world; watch Me.”

Ray (00:00:13):

And when we just bow down before the Lord—and say, ”I offer myself to You; I offer my family to You. I bow down; I surrender,”—God says, “Now, that’s what I’m talking about”; and He will make it happen.

Jani (00:00:25):

Just say, “Yes.”

Dave (00:00:31):

Alright. We’ve got Ray and Jani Ortlund in the studio; what a pleasure to have you. We’ve had Dane in here many times. He’s been on the Love Like You Mean It® cruise with us and had a great time. I found out something—I don’t know, Jani, if you were there—but that Ray got to do; I’ve never been able to do in my entire life.

Ann (00:00:51):

Oh, what?

Dave (00:00:51):

It is a bucket list that I wish—it’ll never happen because it’s impossible—but he did something I would’ve wished I could have done. In fact, I’m going to tell you.

Ann (00:01:00):

A Super Bowl ring? Do you have a Super Bowl ring?

Ray: I wish!

Dave (00:01:02):

I’m getting one of those this year; no. He, in 1968,—

Ray: —’66.

Dave: —’66, saw—[strumming guitar and singing] “Oh, yeah, I’ll tell you something—

Ray (00:01:21):

Oh, yeah, baby.

Dave: [singing]—“I want to hold your hand. I want to hold your hand. I want to hold your hand.”

Ray: Oh, man.

Dave (00:01:33):

You saw the Beatles! Where? LA Dodger’s Stadium.

Ray: LA Dodger’s Stadium in LA, yeah.

Ann: What?! You went to the concert?

Ray (00:01:42):

Yes, I heard the Beatles live.

Dave: Well, go ahead and tell them the truth. You didn’t hear them; you heard a bunch of girls screaming.

Ray (00:01:45):

Okay, that’s true. It really was fun to see them, the real deal right there. But the sound system—it was 1966—and it was just terrible quality.

Dave (00:01:57):

—the box amps. The Beatles even said, “We couldn’t hear ourselves.” It was just crazy. And that was their next-to-last ever concert.

Ray (00:02:04):

Yeah.

Ann (00:02:05):

I didn’t know that.

Dave (00:02:06):

Yeah, they had one more.

Ray: They flew from there; the next day, they flew to San Francisco; and they quit touring. It was 20,000 screaming teenage girls.

Ann (00:02:15):

And did you love The Beatles?

Ray (00:02:16):

Oh, yeah. Are you kidding?

Ann (00:02:17):

Who didn’t, back then, right?

Ray (00:02:19):

Yeah.

Dave (00:02:20):

Well, take us back. You were married right around then, right?

Jani (00:02:23):

A few years later.

Dave (00:02:24):

Okay, ’68?

Ann (00:02:24):

But you met when?

Jani: ‘68—September 12th, 1968, about—

Ray (00:02:31):

—5:00 pm. I was minding my own business. I was just walking from the dorm to the dining hall.

Ann (00:02:36):

—Wheaton College.

Ray: Yes.

Jani (00:02:39):

I wasn’t minding my own business.

Ann (00:02:39):

Okay.

Ray (00:02:40):

The dining hall opened at 5; it was like five minutes to 5. I was hungry, so I was on my way. I saw over to my left, about 50 feet away, a guy I had met a few days before. He was also on the football team; he was a freshman. I just thought, “I’ll say, ‘Hi,’ on my way.” I walk over; and little do I realize—here is this gorgeous new student on campus. Oh, my goodness.

Ann (00:03:01):

She’s a freshman.

Ray (00:03:02):

Yeah.

Ann (00:03:02):

And you’re a—

Ray (00:03:03):

—sophomore. Oh, big sophomore. And oh, my goodness, I just melted.

Dave (00:03:10):

Jani, did you sort of plant yourself over there? Were you trying to—

Jani (00:03:13):

Me?—plant myself so I could meet Buddy Ortlund, the football player?

Ann: Was that his nickname?—Buddy.

Jani: Buddy, yes. He was my roommate’s pastor’s son in her growing-up years. I had heard all about him and his family; I really wanted to meet him. I almost tripped him on his way to the dining room.

Ray (00:03:34):

Jani was from Minnesota. It was almost—to this California boy—was almost like the mythical far northern land. Oh, my goodness, walking out of that northern mist, here comes this amazing woman.

Jani (00:03:48):

I had never seen an ocean before; so to meet someone from California, who loved the Lord, and was so cute to boot!

Ray (00:03:58):

Here’s the truth of it. A couple weeks later, I was in a conversation with another freshman guy. I don’t know how he knew this, but he had heard through the grapevine that a guy had taken Jani out and tried to put a move on her. She shut him down. I thought, “No, wait a minute. We’re talking about an absolutely gorgeous woman with Christian standards? I am taking her out!” So that was what did it; I called her up, and we just began to fall crazy in love.

Ann (00:04:29):

Did you date all through college?

Jani: Yes.

Ann: And then, when did you get married?

Jani (00:04:34):

The week I graduated. He wouldn’t marry me until I graduated, so December 18, 1971. I went through summer school to graduate early.

Ann (00:04:43):

So give us a little bit of your history in terms of: How many kids? How long have you been married now? We can add it up, but you can just tell us.

Jani (00:04:53):

It will be 54 years this December we’ve been married. We have four children; and all married, loving Jesus. Oh, we thank the Lord for that; don’t we, darling?

Ray (00:05:04):

—15 grandchildren.

Jani (00:05:05):

Yes.

Ray (00:05:06):

We’re so grateful; we just feel immeasurably rich. We didn’t cook this up. We didn’t have a whiteboard and markers; we didn’t mastermind this.

Ann (00:05:17):

God’s grace.

Ray: God’s grace.

Jani: “Not to us, O LORD; not to us, but to Your name be glory” (Psalm 115).

Ray (00:05:24):

Well, you know what it’s like. You just live each day, and God is the One masterminding the better future we really long for. If we were to draw the plan, it would be inferior to what God gives.

Dave (00:05:39):

I mean, we sit here; and we hear the story. We think, “Oh, it must have been pretty easy, and no struggles.” Were there struggles?

Jani (00:05:45):

How long do we have? Oh, my goodness. Do you want to hear about our first fight or our argument yesterday?

Ann: Let me ask you—because we say this—

Dave (00:05:55):

I want to hear about the argument yesterday.

Ann (00:05:57):

Did you have an argument yesterday?

Ray (00:05:59):

Well, I wouldn’t call it an argument. It was an interesting discussion.

Dave: It doesn’t matter what you think.

Jani (00:06:03):

Yes.

Ray (00:06:03):

I said to Jani—we were in the Orlando airport—I’m just being me, and I’m annoying her. I can tell that I’m annoying her. I said to her, “Honey, I really like it when you chew me out, because then I feel more comfortable. I feel like you’re free to tell me what you really think and feel.” So it was—

Dave (00:06:26):

Did you chew him out pretty good?

Jani (00:06:28):

Well, what’s your definition of “pretty good,” Dave? I don’t think so.

We laugh a lot more now in our marriage.

Ann: We do too.

Jani: Isn’t it wonderful?

Ann: Yeah.

Dave (00:06:40):

Now why do you think that is? —”… a lot more now…”—what happened?

Jani (00:06:44):

Before, I was worried that he would never get me; and I would have to fight to be understood and accepted. But through the years, he has proven over and over: “Jani, we’re going to make this a win-win.” He has done that. So now I can just laugh when he annoys me; tell him.

Ray (00:07:12):

And by now we know we’re going to get through the crisis du jour, not because we’re so great at it, but because the Lord is present. Underneath are the everlasting arms. We don’t always feel that, but we can know that. And even if we forget it—still, underneath, are the everlasting arms—He’s not just keeping our faith alive; He’s keeping our laughter bubbling as well.

Ann (00:07:45):

That’s sweet, isn’t it?

Ray (00:07:46):

Yeah, it is.

Ann (00:07:47):

Let me ask you: “When you got married, did you think you would struggle the way you did?” Because every single couple struggles; there’s not a couple living that hasn’t gone through some real valleys, whether in life or marriage. Dave and I thought, because we were so in love and because we love Jesus so much, we would not struggle. What did you think?

Dave (00:08:10):

And we did.

Ann (00:08:11):

We did so much.

Dave (00:08:12):

—immediately.

Ann (00:08:13):

Yes.

Dave (00:08:13):

We sort of thought: “The past is buried. It’s the old creation; we’re new in Christ—

2 Corinthians 5—which is all true. We thought that meant: “Oh, we won’t struggle. We love Jesus; we love each other, going into ministry.” And then, we struggled; and we were surprised.

Was that your story—or no?—you knew you were going to struggle.

Ray (00:08:35):

Okay, here’s my theory on this. Let me try this out on you, honey; tell me what you think.

Jani (00:08:38):

First time on—

Ray (00:08:40):

Yeah, okay. I think God gives us, as a gift, this crazy euphoria we call romance. Because if we were in our right minds, we would never make the total commitment of marriage. I mean, you’re committing, in advance, to what you can’t foresee. That’s crazy.

Dave (00:09:02):

Making a promise/covenant.

Ray (00:09:04):

Yes. I think God says, “Well, if they were sensible at all, they would never make a commitment. So I’m going to sort of propel them into it.” He sprinkles His pixie dust on us, and we enter into temporary insanity; do the deal. And then, it sort of wears off, with little spikes along the way. But without that surge of crazy, wonderful romance, we might not take the risk.

I believe that taking the risk of total love, it’s not just—okay, you have to be a Christian to be crazy enough to believe this—if Ephesians 5 is telling us the truth about the reality of Christ and the church in romantic love, we’ve parachuted into a universe where ultimate reality is romance. We’re receiving, as married couples, we’re receiving the privilege of sort of replicating it on a small scale imperfectly; but really, in our own experience, so that people who will never darken the door of a church to hear the gospel can see the gospel just because we’re married.

Ann (00:10:29):

Exactly.

Ray (00:10:30):

That’s crazy.

Ann (00:10:31):

When you love someone, and see all of their flaws, but continue to love them unconditionally; that’s the gospel.

Ray (00:10:37):

It is.

Ann (00:10:40):

Did you know that 40 percent of our ministry support comes in these final weeks of the year? Your gift, in this season, helps us continue sharing the hope of the gospel with families everywhere.

Dave (00:10:53):

So come be a part of the team that helps make this ministry possible. How can you do it? You can give at FamilyLifeToday.com, or give us a call at 1-800-FL-TODAY.

Okay, let’s go back to the show. Okay, let’s go back to the conversation.

Ann: [singing] “Let’s go back to it.”

Dave: Please keep that in.

Ann (00:11:09):

We’re talking today about your book, To the Tenth Generation. What is that about? What a good title. Explain everything.

Ray (00:11:25):

Well, the subtitle—

Jani (00:11:27):

—God’s Heart for Your Family, Far into the Future. It’s a new concept that the Lord gave us—what?—five/six years ago as the Lord—

Ray (00:11:39):

Yeah, the Lord gave it to you, honey.

Jani (00:11:41):

I was sitting, just very innocently reading my Bible; I know this has happened to you and to our listeners. I read through the Bible generally once a year.

Ann: So do I.

Jani: I was in Deuteronomy 23 of all places.

Ann (00:11:58):

Really?!

Jani (00:11:59):

Yes! Deuteronomy 23. I came to the first few verses, 2 and 3, I think they were, where God says, “Tell those people groups”—I think it’s the Ammonites and the Edomites—”that they’re going to be excluded from My presence, to the tenth generation, because”—and He explained why.

I stopped, and thought, “Wait a minute, that doesn’t seem fair!” That question arose in my heart: “Lord, I don’t get this. This is not what makes sense to me.” I found myself—I’m embarrassed to admit this—judging God’s ways, saying, “How could You?—to the tenth generation?” I prayed about it; I thought about it. I brought it to Ray; we started talking about it. We began thinking about who God really is, not what I make Him out to be by reading one or two verses.

(00:13:07):

We began thinking, throughout all of Scripture—God’s bias toward blessing; God’s bias toward welcome; God’s bias towards receiving us supremely—and His Son; we see it there. I thought, “Well, I’ve had this question mark. Now, from Deuteronomy 23 on, I’m going to start looking for verses that talk about God’s blessing the generations; they’re everywhere! I wish we had time to go through all of them. I had just read a few days before that time in Deuteronomy 23, in Deuteronomy 7, where He talks about being the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love Him and keep His commandments to a thousand generations.

Ray (00:14:12):

Amazing.

Ann (00:14:12):

That is amazing.

Jani: —a thousand generations. Over, and over, and over again, if you look through my Bible, you’d see the little symbol 10th on page, after page, after page where God has promised: “I want to use your precious family to further My redemptive plan.” It’s: “Your family is crucial in My plan to redeem My world; watch Me.” That’s what this book is about. What would you add, hon?

Ray (00:14:47):

Well, as we thought about some of those Old Testament passages through a gospel lens, exactly what Jani was saying: “If God had His reasons for excluding certain people—people groups and families to the tenth generation—how much more, in Christ, does He long to bless families to the tenth generation and beyond?” So like you guys, when we got married, we weren’t thinking far into the future. We just—

Jani (00:15:22):

—the next day.

Ray (00:15:23):

Yeah, that’s right. But what we’ve come to realize is this: “God has an intergenerational plan for our family.” Here’s why that matters: in the United States of America right now, there’s a lot of fear; there’s a lot of anger, a lot of anxiety, a lot of uncertainty. But God has put covenant promises on His churches and on Christian families as He has not put covenant promises on nations, corporations, sports teams, and so forth. Churches and Christian homes are receiving promises from above that will last: they’re durable; they’re industrial strength; they’re military grade.

(00:16:13):

These promises of God are going to get us through these hard times.

Jani and I thought it through; we did the math: December 18, 1971; just two of us. We have four kids; they get married. Two become eight in one generational shift. Now those eight have now produced fifteen grandchildren—so two, eight, fifteen—you see where this is going, exponentially. At this point, it starts becoming hypothetical but not implausible. One of those grandchildren is already married, so they’re going to have babies. Now, at present trends, our family, in ten generations is going to be 55,000 people.

Dave (00:17:06):

Is that right?

Ray (00:17:07):

Yes!

Jani (00:17:08):

And it’s all our fault. The hope and dream of this book is that families will catch the vision that they really matter to the Lord and that what they’re doing today can matter far out into the future.

Ray (00:17:26):

Yes. We’re trivialized by our world every day; we’re told in so many ways: “You don’t matter. You might matter as part of a voting block; you might matter as part of a market niche, but you actually don’t matter; and your family is only, at best, useful.”

Jani (00:17:45):

And we believe that; we take that in as families. We think, “Oh, my family’s so boring. It’s just a daily routine: get up; feed the kids; do the laundry; go to work.” We don’t see the magnificence of the Lord in it. He promises—is it in Exodus 20?—that “Everywhere I cause My name to be remembered, I will come and bless.”

(00:18:10):

His blessing is on the mundane, the boring. Let’s not be Christians—

Ray (00:18:15):

—the daily, the ordinary—

Jani (00:18:15):

—who settle for less than what God has envisioned: His mighty purposes for our families.

Ray (00:18:22):

What we’ve come to realize is equally true of you and every Christian dad and mom listening. We have our family right now; we also have a future family. We can love our future family right now. We can’t control the future, but we can invest in the future. We can give our hearts, our prayers and our devotion right now such that dominoes are going to fall over, far into the future. We’re way more significant than we’ve ever realized. Anyway, this landed on us. It changed how we saw our family and how we treat them.

Ann (00:19:00):

You guys, no wonder there’s such a spiritual warfare—a battle going on over the family—because of this impact that we can have on the entire world.

Ray (00:19:11):

That’s a good point.

Ann (00:19:12):

Fifty-five thousand people is a city.

Ray (00:19:14):

Sarasota, Florida.

Dave: Yeah, it’s a big city.

Jani (00:19:18):

So let’s be Christian leaders who encourage our fellow Christians that God is bigger than our fear of the future. I can sit here in this chair and be so scared about everything; but God has promised—where?—in Acts 2:39: “For the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off.” He’s promised me already that, if I look to Him, it will have an impact on my children, my great-grandchildren, far into the future for all those who are far off. How big is our God? Isn’t that wonderful? We don’t need to be scared!

Dave (00:20:03):

That’s your quote in the second chapter: “How Big God Is Matters More than How Frightening the Future Is.” I’ve always said: “The size of your God is more important than the size of your faith.” Answer this: “How does a normal Christian get a bigger God? How do we grow in the size of our God?” What would you say?

Ray (00:20:25):

Well, one thing is to just dare: dare to believe the promises of the Bible. They were paid for, in advance, in full by Christ at His cross. Every bill we run up from then on, God pays it. Let’s believe in grace upon grace—John, Chapter 1, verse 16. I love the way Martin Luther taught us how to fight back against Satan’s lies; Luther said this from his commentary on Galatians—he said, “When the devil comes to us, and says to us, ‘You are so evil; you’re going to be damned,’ we should reply: ‘Precisely, because you say I am so evil, I will be justified and saved.’ Satan will reply, ‘No, you will end up damned.’ We will say, ‘No, for Christ died for my sins. My sins are on His shoulders, not on mine. So Satan, when you tell me how sinful I am, you don’t dishearten me at all. In fact, you comfort me.’”

When we think we’re so—we’re failures; we’re inadequate; we’re disqualified; “I had my chance, but I blew it; God’s finished with me,”—now, those are the very people whom God loves, embraces, includes. If we think, “God could never use me,” we’re ready for God to use us.

Ann (00:21:58):

That’s such a good reminder.

Jani (00:21:59):

I would add and emphasize what you’ve been saying, honey, this way: “How do we increase our faith?” We go to His Word; we listen to Him.

(00:22:10):

And we look for those promises that Ray has mentioned, and that we’ve been sharing; and we pray them: “Lord, You said this. Now make it happen today in my life and in my future—in my children’s life—over and over and into the tenth generation.” We have several of those promises.

We hope your listeners might pick it up and look through it and be encouraged for how God loves the generations. One of my favorite verses is from Isaiah 65, verse 23, says: “They shall not labor in vain.” Don’t you love that word, Ann?—the laboring of a woman—“They shall not labor in vain or bear children for calamity, for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the Lord and their descendants with them.” “It’s not just you, Jani; I’m looking at your grandchildren and your great-great grandchildren. Hold fast to Me; it matters, today, for them.”

Ray (00:23:17):

One of my favorites is in Luke’s Gospel, Chapter 1. Mary says in the Magnificat, and in this wonderful prayer, that she declares when she knows that our Savior, our Messiah is coming through her, she looks—using Old Testament language—she just rejoices in the ways of God/the strategies of God; how He rolls. “What’s going on here?” She says in verse 50 of Luke 1: “God’s mercy is for those who fear Him from generation to generation.” In other words, God’s not making this up as He goes. He’s not, right now, nervously working on Plan B; He’s got His plan. Everything is going His way, and His plan includes intergenerational blessing for those who fear Him.

What then does it mean for Jani and me—for you guys—to fear the Lord? Well, my mind goes back to Genesis, Chapter 22, where Abraham puts his son down before God and surrenders his son to the Lord. And the Lord says, “Now I know that you fear Me.” Fear is reverent openness to God. When Jani and I—when you guys, every Christian dad and mom listening—when we just bow down before the Lord, and say, “I’m not good at this, but I offer myself to You. I offer my family to You. I bow down; I surrender now. Be glorified in us,” God says, “Now, that’s what I’m talking about.” Blessing kicks in. That’s all we have to do guys; we don’t have to deserve His grace.

(00:25:02):

We don’t have to qualify; we don’t have to keep earning it. Our obedience has no purchasing power; we just yield to Him, and He will make it happen.

Jani (00:25:13):

Just say, “Yes.” Just say, “Yes,” to Him. That’s what our children’s book that accompanies this teaches/helps parents to teach their children.

Ann (00:25:24):

And what’s the title of your children’s book?

Jani (00:25:26):

Your Family Is God’s Plan:—

Ann (00:25:29):

I love that.

Jani (00:25:29):

—His Mercy from Generation to Generation is based on Luke 1:50, teaching your child to say, “Yes.” When you say, “Yes,” to God, no matter how hard it is, you can trust Him.

Ann (00:25:42):

I think that, in a nutshell, is everything; because we make it so complicated: “I need to do this,” “I need to go here,” “I need it.” What it really is—and Dave and I did this—I bet you guys did this, too: on our honeymoon night, we knelt at the foot of the bed before we got in the bed, and we prayed that prayer: “God, we pray/we give You our marriage. We surrender our lives, our future. And we pray that You would give us a marriage, not a good marriage, but a great marriage that would impact the world for Christ.”

In other words, all it did is: “We give You our lives, God. We don’t know what we’re doing. We have no idea what’s ahead, but we surrender.” That’s the prayer for a family.

That’s it; that’s it, you guys. It’s the best, the biggest. Jesus is like, “Okay, I got you. Wait until you see the journey”; and it’s not easy, but it’s good.

Ray (00:26:35):

No, we wouldn’t want it to be easy.

Ann (00:26:38):

I would, Ray; I would like it to be so. We have a different opinion about that!

Ray (00:26:44):

I remember reading about Bill and Vonette Bright.

Jani (00:26:47):

Yes!

Ray (00:26:48):

He was in the candy business, wasn’t he? They came to a threshold in their life together when they took out a piece of paper, as I understand it, and literally signed themselves over to the Lord.

Ann (00:27:02):

—a contract.

Ray (00:27:04):

Yeah; every listening dad and mom: “What a great idea. Literally, take out a piece of paper and write out a commitment to the Lord.”

I remember a day in 1988 when I was at a very low point. I was a pastor in Oregon. I was sincere but clueless.

Dave: Been there.

Ray: I wasn’t doing a very good job. It was not going well, but I didn’t know what else to do. I took out my typewriter, and I typed out the total surrender as best I could articulate it. It wasn’t fancy, but I just handed myself over to the Lord. I signed it; I dated it. I came to realize, later, that was a turning point. I didn’t orchestrate how things would turn around and get better; I did not do that. All I could do is give the Lord my need. We all deeply believe—the four of us are living proof—God’s faithfulness, over the long-term, for people who really don’t deserve it. I love that.

Dave (00:28:17):

I didn’t think of it at the moment; but when I surrendered—when I became a Christian, literally, I just sort of caught my girlfriend—it wasn’t Ann—with another guy. So there was this betrayal that was going on that I sensed. I literally found out it was true. And it was the last straw for me; I was like, “I’ve been holding onto this; been holding onto my football future”—and just having a second knee surgery—and I’m like, “I’m done. I’m done trying to live my way and get what I want.” It was that moment I was broken. I get on my knees, in my childhood bedroom, and I just said just what you did. I said, “I’m done. I’m not living for me anymore. I repent of my sin. I’m a broken sinner, and I need forgiveness.”

(00:29:07):

I knew the gospel—I heard it enough times in the last year—and I just said right there; I said, “I’ll go and do and be anything You want me to be. My life is now Yours, whatever You want.”

I look back in that moment; I didn’t feel this. Now, I look back, sort of what you were saying, Ray, it’s almost like heaven is looking down. I’ve said this, sometimes in a sermon, I think Jesus is up there, looking down at me, like this; and I go—I know this isn’t theologically accurate, but just go with me here—it’s like He looks down at me, and He sees me on my knees. He goes, “Hey, Wilson, you serious? You really serious?” And I’m like, “Yeah, I’m serious.” He goes, “Alright, you won’t believe what I got for you! This is so different than you thought it was, but I’m going to just take you on the journey of your life.” And again, that doesn’t mean easy.

Ann (00:29:50):

No.

Dave (00:29:50):

I mean difficulties and trials were in the future, but it means: “You’re going to live the life I’ve created you to live.” Not even thinking, in that moment, that decision affected this; and now, a legacy of Wilsons and grandkids. That was not in my mind there, but it was in God’s.

Ann (00:30:09):

What’s crazy is the same night that he did that, I was working a factory job, earning college money to go to school in the summer. The same night I was on an assembly line, shooting screws into dishwasher doors, praying the same prayer: “God, I feel like I’ve just been trying to—I’m on the fence—I’m living both sides, the world and for You, I’m done doing that. I give my life to You; I surrender everything. I’ll go”—same words—”I’ll go anywhere; I’ll do anything.

Ray (00:30:38):

That’s amazing.

Ann (00:30:39):

“For the rest of my life, I’m going to follow You.” At the end of my prayer, I said, “And God,”—I was dating this other guy—“it seems like that Dave Wilson guy”—we are from the same hometown—“it seems like he is passionate about You. Maybe he could find me somebody to disciple me.”

Dave (00:30:57):

I think she thought I was cute; she wanted to date me.

Ann: He was very cute!

Ray (00:31:03):

You know what I love about this? Every listener who is—this just works for everybody.

Ann: Yes!

Ray: You don’t have to have a PhD.

Ann (00:31:14):

Doesn’t matter what you’ve done.

Ray (00:31:15):

You don’t need to be spiritually gigantic. If it were just—

Jani (00:31:19):

—His mercy; we’ve been talking about His mercy. It’s for those who fear Him.

Ray (00:31:21):

Okay, here’s the story from me. I was totally falling in love with Jani, and I called up to ask her out. This was in April, 1969; and she’d already accepted a date with another guy.

Jani (00:31:37):

Getting jealous enough to commit.

Ann: Smart!

Dave (00:31:39):

You’re playing hard to get. I get it.

Ray: And I thought, “What?! This is not good. I need to ask Jani to go steady with me because—

Jani (00:31:48):

Do your listeners know what going steady means?

Ray (00:31:50):

Does that even work anymore?

Ann: Now they do.

Dave (00:31:53):

It’s a thing on Facebook.

Ann (00:31:53):

We know!

Ray (00:31:55):

Talk about not being theologically sophisticated. I decide: “I’m going to play Bible roulette here. I’m going to just start reading the Bible, because I need guidance from God. I really want to ask her to go study with me, but I don’t want to cook this up on my own; because I really want God to be part of this. I’m just going to read the Bible until a verse leaps off the page at me; and then, I’ll know what God’s answer is.”

I’m turning to the book of Leviticus.

Dave (00:32:24):

Hey listeners, by the way, this isn’t a great way to read the Bible.

Ray (00:32:26):

No, no; I don’t.

Ann (00:32:29):

Leviticus; you turned to Leviticus?

Ray: Well, I was on my way there; because I was thinking, “That’s the most unhelpful book. So when I get the answer, it will really work.” Then I’m thinking, “No, Ecclesiastes is even more weird”; so I’m turning to Ecclesiastes. I start reading in Chapter 1, verse 1, having no idea how incredibly relevant Ecclesiastes is.

Dave: Oh, what a book.

Ray (00:32:50):

I come to Chapter 11, and this is what I read: “ Rejoice, oh, young man in your youth and let your heart cheer you in the days of your youth. Walk in the ways of your heart in the sight of your eyes.” I thought, “What? God—

Dave: —“…the sight of my eyes?”

Ray: —”is affirming?” God is saying, “You like her, don’t you? So ask her. I’m not promising she’ll say, ‘Yes’; but treat her right because she belongs to Me. But go ahead and ask her, and I will bless you.”

Jani (00:33:32):

And he did; and I said, “Yes.” And here we are, 54 years later.

Dave: You said, “No,” to that other guy?

Jani: Well, I went out with him; but never again.

Ray (00:33:43):

Yeah; so I called her back; asked her out for the next weekend. She said, “Yes.” But the point is—here we are; we’re dopey teenagers—and God loves dopey teenagers. God loves parents who feel inadequate, and exhausted, and worried. God loves—

Jani (00:34:04):

—worried grandparents, who are anxious for their young ones.

Ray (00:34:09):

Yeah, that’s right. And God is with us.

Luke (00:34:13):

Hi friends, we’re Luke and Kristina Middendorf. I serve as the President of FamilyLife, and we’re so glad you’re joining us for FamilyLife Today. Did you know that 40 percent of our ministry support comes in at the end of the year? That’s why your gift right now makes such a difference.

Kristina (00:34:29):

And this month, every donation you give is matched, dollar for dollar. Your generosity helps families experience the gospel and see God’s faithfulness in their story. You can give at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 800-FL-TODAY.

Luke (00:34:48):

We’re so grateful for you. Now, let’s get back to the conversation.

Dave (00:34:54):

Now, what do you say to the couple who’s listening—that I’m guessing right now; I was thinking—“Yeah, I listen to the Wilsons and the Ortlunds. Their life has been pretty marvelous and special, and they’re blessed. God answered their prayer, but we are struggling.

(00:35:08):

We have kids who have walked away from the faith. My husband’s walked…”—whatever their struggle is. I know there’s people watching or listening; and they’re like, “We’re not blessed like these two couples; they have a special blessing. They’re in ministry; they’re pastors.” You know what I’m saying? I know a lot of people think that our blessing is uniquely better than theirs. Even hearing our stories, like, “Look at God was in it, but He’s not with us.” You just said He’s with them—and we know He is—but what would you say to that couple who right now is struggling to believe in—

Ann (00:35:39):

They’re just wanting to give up.

Dave (00:35:39):

—their life is charmed like ours.

Ray (00:35:44):

We were at the low point of our life in 2007. We had the privilege of spending a day with David Paulison, who was a biblical counselor back in Philadelphia.

Dave (00:35:57):

Yeah, I know the name.

Jani (00:35:59):

He’s with the Lord now.

Ray (00:36:01):

And he was so wise and so helpful. He said, “Okay, you guys are going through a horrible season in life; and this is going to take a while. So here’s what I recommend: why don’t you ask the Lord for a verse of Scripture? Ask the Lord for a promise and encouragement. And when the Lord gives it to you, latch onto it; wallpaper your reality with that promise. However dark the nighttime sky might be, you can look up and see that north star; get your bearings; keep going.” Oh, that was so helpful.

About two weeks later, Jani is sitting there, reading 1 Peter, Chapter 5. She reads verse 10; she says, “Ray, listen to this!” She reads this verse: “After you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.”

Jani (00:37:15):

We claimed that promise because of David’s kind counsel to us. We wrote it out: put it on our mirror where we brush our teeth; and on our refrigerator door; in the car. We memorized it and asked the Lord: “This is Your promise to us. We know You will confirm it eventually; maybe, in our lifetime”; and He has.

Ray (00:37:41):

Yes, just one step after another from then on.

Jani (00:37:44):

We would encourage people who feel like failures to go to the Word again and look for a promise for them, and hold God to it.

Dave (00:37:56):

“Wallpaper your reality with it.”

Ann: What a phrase.

Dave: What a phrase!

Ray (00:38:02):

It wasn’t a quick fix.

Jani (00:38:03):

No.

Ray (00:38:04):

We had a lot of things to work through, but that verse gave us hope. Hope is what gets us through anything.

Jani (00:38:12):

We still will say, “Oh, that’s a 1 Peter 5:10 experience.” We say that about today, being with you, whom we respect so much.

I might add here about those who feel like they’re failures. We do write about that in our book To the Tenth… Jesus died for failures; He didn’t die for successes. Those who are successful don’t need Him—it’s the weak—that’s when He enters in. It’s the weak who receive His power, and His strength, and His grace. Where you feel you’re failing, that’s where Jesus welcomes you most. He doesn’t want to just pat you on the back, and say, “Hey, way to go. You don’t need Me; go on!” He loves it when we come to Him with our failures, and say, “This is hopeless. There’s nothing I can do. Only You can save this situation.”

Dave (00:39:15):

Do you remember your failure or your struggle—

Jani (00:39:19):

Oh, yes.

Dave (00:39:19):

—that put you in that counselor’s chair?

Jani (00:39:22):

We do.

Ray (00:39:22):

Yeah, it was a ministry catastrophe. I wondered if I had a future in ministry. It wasn’t just less blessing than normal; the bottom fell out, and in a particularly humiliating way. I was psychologically incapable of experiencing what the English word, “encouragement,” is talking about. I was not able to trust the Lord. Jani was the one—I said, “Sweetheart, let’s go on your faith for a while until I can get back on my feet,”—my precious warrior wife got me through that.

Jani (00:40:06):

Because I knew what Ray was hearing from a few men in particular that was not true.

Ann (00:40:14):

Jani, did it make you mad?

Jani (00:40:15):

Oh, I was so angry.

Ann (00:40:15):

I was going to say—

Jani (00:40:17):

I was so angry, because it was slanderous. It was totally against the gospel. In the middle of it all, Ray’s beloved father passed away. And Ray’s dad was his hero, my hero. It was just awful.

Ray (00:40:38):

On my dad’s dying day, we were over in Ireland. He was at the hospital, of course, there in California. The family gathered around his bedside. They sang hymns; they read Scripture. He gave a word of patriarchal blessing to each member of the family before he died. And when we got back, I asked my sister, “What did Dad/what was his word to me?” And dad said to them, “Tell Bud ministry isn’t everything; Jesus is.”

(00:41:16):

I want to say that to all our listeners: “Whatever it is that you feel like you’re losing or have lost—ministry really matters, that’s why we care; family matters; jobs matter; everything about us matters in the sight of God—but only Jesus is our salvation. And when Jesus is our salvation, other things in life tend, over time, to fall into place. There’s hope; there’s hope.” I didn’t engineer that; I didn’t deserve that; I didn’t mastermind it. I just received it.

I would just say to our listeners, who are deeply disheartened and brokenhearted: “Well 1, I wish I could just put my arm around you right now; because you’re my people. Secondly, God is with you. He is your everything. Move all your chips over onto His square.”

Ann (00:42:33):

I like that.

Ray (00:42:33):

Yeah. Say, “Lord, You’re my future; You’re my hope. I’m going to hang onto You for dear life. I’m going to wallpaper my reality with Your promises. I’m just going to believe—I’m going to defiantly believe—You’re going to get me through this.” And He will.

Jani (00:42:55):

Something that’s helped me in the midst of times when I felt like an utter failure is to ask myself, “Why does that failure matter so much to me?” There’s something about it: part of it is I want my kids in heaven; I want my grandchildren in heaven. I want to run their lives in a way that looks good to me.

(00:43:21):

When I’ve gone through hard times in my life, I keep coming back to a verse that God gave me in Psalm 62. Psalm 62:1: “My soul finds rest in God—

Ann: —”alone.”

Jani: —”alone.” You know it. And so when I’m struggling with a fear of failure—I’ll feel that after today, when I go home and think: “Oh, why didn’t I say that?” or “Why did I say that?”—I have to ask myself, “What is my soul finding her rest in? Is it being successful on the radio program? Is it…”—whatever it is—“My soul finds rest in my children following the Lord,” or “…my husband loving me,”—whatever. Those are wonderful things; but I have to ultimately rest in the fact that God is all I need, and He will be enough.

Ann (00:44:19):

So good.

Ray: And in the Magnificat—again, in Luke, Chapter 1, verse 50—Mary did not say: “For those who deserve Him, His mercy continues from generation to generation—

Jani (00:44:34):

“For those who fear Him….”

Ray (00:44:36):

Yeah, we just believe. Again, you have to be a Christian to be crazy enough to believe this: that God—the gospel is not God’s concession to us; it’s not God’s Plan B—God loves to give to the undeserving. There is something about Him; we’re not like that.

Ann (00:44:57):

No.

Ray (00:44:58):

We deeply believe in the “Pay as you go plan”; right? “That’s how life works.”

Dave (00:45:02):

“Earn it.”

Ray (00:45:03):

“Earn it, every inch of it.” And God says, “No; actually, I have different ground rules. I love to give to the undeserving.” Oh, man; where would we be—

Ann (00:45:13):

Where would we be?

Ray (00:45:14):

—without the grace of God?

Dave (00:45:17):

I know you talk about this in The Tenth Generation book. What does blessing look like?—when you think, “marriage”?—when you think, “family”?—when you think, “generational”? What does that look like; how does God bless?

Ray (00:45:32):

Blessing is hope coming into our experience. It’s that feeling/that thought: “Oh, I’ve made so many mistakes. There’s so much I don’t understand; but maybe, my life really is going somewhere. Maybe, God is with me; and God can take this wreckage and make something beautiful out of it.” That sense of what Jani just said: “My soul finds rest in God alone. He is my better future; He’s going to make this happen”; that’s blessing coming down, even before things turn around. Blessing takes the form of hope—

Ann (00:46:30):

I like that.

Ray (00:46:30):

—in the mercy of God.

Jani (00:46:31):

It comes down before it spreads out.

Ray (00:46:34):

That’s good.

Jani (00:46:34):

It comes down upon us; and then, starts spreading out.

Dave (00:46:38):

What if—I’m playing devil’s advocate a little bit—what if the couple listening—or maybe, even a single person’s listening, and wishing, and wondering, and hoping to get married—either/or; but they feel like it isn’t coming down. It isn’t turning.

Ann (00:46:57):

They’re not seeing God’s blessing.

Dave (00:46:59):

“I’m in a valley. It’s been a long dark valley, and there’s no end in sight. In fact, I know there isn’t going to be a quick turnaround the next three months/six months. It might be years, if ever.” How do you speak to them? They’re just in the dark right now.

Ray (00:47:19):

Well, who isn’t in there?

Ann (00:47:22):

It’s so true!

Ray (00:47:23):

I mean, who isn’t living?

Ann (00:47:25):

People would say you guys aren’t.

Ray (00:47:26):

Oh, who isn’t living a Plan B life? Back when we were seniors in high school—and we were awesome, and the sky was the limit—and we thought of the future; we painted that picture in our minds. Who actually goes on to live that?—nobody.

Jani (00:47:42):

But honey, Dave is thinking of those women who aren’t married—and that single woman, who is approaching age 45, where she knows she will not be able to bear children—if she’s to be given children, they’ll be through adoption. He’s asking, “What do you say to that person?” They do look at us, honey. Come on; I get to be married to Ray Ortlund.

Ray: Oh, Jani. No, you have to be.

Dave (00:48:10):

The great Ray Ortlund is your husband!

Jani (00:48:12):

He’s mine; he’s mine, all mine.

Ray: That’s embarrassing, darling.

Dave: All yours.

Jani: Keep that in [the broadcast]; don’t take it out.

But isn’t that what you’re asking, Dave?

Dave (00:48:24):

I was just hoping Ann would say the same thing about her husband; but obviously, she didn’t!

Jani: Now’s your chance!

Dave: And there’s the end of that moment. That one’s gone!

Ann: I am married to the great Dave Wilson.

Dave: Blah, blah, blah.

Jani (00:48:31):

The thing is: God orchestrates each individual life with individual sorrows and trials for His glory, for His purpose. He’s working Ephesians 1; He’s working all things according to the counsel of His will. Whether I’m married to Ray for 60 years, or I’m single, He’s working it according to the counsel of His will. So we want to keep pointing your listeners to God.

Ray (00:49:06):

Yeah, John Piper wrote that great book, Don’t Waste Your Life, that really helped me. I’d like to write a sequel: “He Will Not Waste Your Life.”

Ann (00:49:18):

Oh, that’s good.

Ray (00:49:20):

The person/the listener who is thinking, “Somehow, I’m excluded. Somehow, it doesn’t work for me.”

Dave: Right, right.

Ann (00:49:28):

—or “…for my marriage,” or “…for my family.”

Jani: — or “…my children.”

Ann: “We’re divorced.”

Dave: That’s what I was talking about.

Ann: Or “I’ve been divorced several times.”

Dave: Many people feel that.

Ray (00:49:34):

Yes, yes.

Jani (00:49:35):

So teach us.

Ray (00:49:37):

We’re talking about us now, because we are in the same category. Who else is God going to work with? Who’s walking up into the presence of God, thinking, “Frankly, You’re lucky to have me on Your team. I’m strengthening Your hand. You’re welcome.”

The person who’s listening to this, thinking, “God has passed me by; I’m not in that stream of blessing,”—that is the person most ideally primed to receive God’s blessing. I would say to that listener, down at rock bottom:

(00:50:41):

I ask you to do what Dave did that night—and what I did in 1988 and so many times—just get down on your knees; hand yourself over to God. Tell Him what you’re really thinking. Tell Him what you’re really feeling. He welcomes your honest reality. Tell Him of your broken heart and hand yourself over to Him completely, withholding nothing. God promises that your life will make an eternal difference—your life—He will not waste your life.

Dave (00:51:20):

You got to write that book.

Ann: You do.

You know what came to my mind, Dave?—as you were sharing that, Ray. I thought of your mom. Dave comes from a family of five children; his parents were divorced. I’m thinking about her, because Dave’s dad had multiple affairs; an alcoholic; beat them—horrible. So the older children, Dave was 10, 12, 14 years younger than his siblings.

Dave (00:51:49):

My little brother dies of leukemia—

Ann (00:51:51):

Yeah, that’s what I’m saying.

Dave (00:51:52):

—right after the divorce.

Ann (00:51:52):

They go through divorce because the older sibling’s like, “Mom, you have to get out of this for your safety.” She divorces; moved to another state to be with her parents. Her youngest son and his brother, Dave, was seven—this boy was five; Craig was five—and died of leukemia six weeks after the divorce.

Ray: Oh, my goodness.

Ann: You talk about a valley. But the thing that I think about with your mom was her heart for Jesus, her surrender to Jesus. Look what we are doing. She got to see so much of that—of you starting a church, thousands of people attending; a marriage; grandkids—she saw that. But the valley—she didn’t do anything but surrender; that’s it—that’s all she did. But that valley that she walked for years.

Dave (00:52:46):

Yeah; I remember, as a seven-year-old when dad left; and then, teenager and watching mom cling to Jesus. I remember laughing, like, “You’re going to believe in a God that let my little brother die and your husband, my dad, leave? You believe in that Guy?” I mocked it. And then, when I was still in high school, she starts dating a guy, a coach of one of my baseball teams. They decided to get married; I’m going to have a dad. He dies a month before the wedding. She never remarried; she just had tragedy after tragedy.

Hearing Ann, right now, say she got to see the tenth generation come to Jesus. Watching her cling to her Jesus; I found that Jesus later.

I know what you’re feeling if you’re—when Ray said, “He’s with you; hang on,”—it’s true. He is—you don’t feel it; you don’t see it—He’s right there.

Ann (00:53:53):

You can’t control.

Dave (00:53:53):

He said earlier: “His everlasting arms are your strength.” Cling to Him.

Ann: Surrender.

Dave (00:54:00):

He’s there.

Ray (00:54:01):

And your mom faithfully gave herself away to you.

Ann (00:54:09):

Yes, she did.

Ray (00:54:09):

And that single person, who’s listening, I would say, “Find a faithful church, a Jesus-centered gospel-teaching church. Go give your life away. Take a risk; stick your neck out. Go give your life away. And when you walk into heaven, there’s going to be this huge fist-bumping, high-fiving team cheer—massive celebration—as you walk in through the grace of Christ. And people are going to come up with tears in their eyes, and say, “Thank you,” “Thank you,” “Thank you.”

Dave (00:54:50):

What a great—you don’t know this—transition. We’ve got a couple audio tributes from a couple of your kids that they recorded. We’re going to play them right now.

Ray: What?!

Jani: What?! Get the Kleenex out; oh!

Dave: It’s right there.

Bruce, which one do we want to play first?

Bruce (00:55:14):

I’ve got Dane right here.

Dave (00:55:15):

Okay. Here’s your son, Dane. We just asked him to share a few words with you.

Dane (00:55:21):

I am immensely thankful for my dad and mom, and I love them with all my heart. Respect them greatly and just revere their lives and their great loves. There are really three loves in their hearts that I have watched—and seen lived out, seem proved and demonstrated—and that have been deposited in me.

One is a love for the Lord Jesus Christ as a real person, as an actual Savior and Master—not a theory, not a formula, not a force—but an actual Person who is there caring for them and for me. The second great love in their life is a love for the Bible. I can picture my mom reading under a blanket, down on the couch in the living room, early in the morning with her cup of tea every morning. Whenever I would come down, whatever time it was, mom was there, reading Scripture.

(00:56:16):

Dad likewise has given his life to the study of the Bible—not just the study of it, but living in light of it and working it out in his life—and I greatly respect that.

And a love for the local church. A love for the Lord Jesus Christ, a love for the Bible, and a love for the church. I cannot imagine or consider living a life myself, or leading my own family and living life, that does not centralize the local church. It’s unthinkable to me because of what I saw in Dad and Mom and the way they have given their lives to the local church as they should and as not all Christians do. They’ve been such a godly example in that way.

So with regard to the Lord Jesus, with regard to the Scripture, with regard to the local church, and many other things—but those are the three great loves that they have lived out and given to me—and which I am seeking to pass on to my own five children now with deep gratitude, and love, and respect to them and for them.

Ray: Oh, that’s sweet.

Ann (00:57:32):

So good!

Ray (00:57:34):

Wow, you guys.

Gavin: Hey Mom and Dad, I want to take a moment and just say, “Thank you for your faithfulness to Christ over the years. I’ve said this to you many times before, but I can’t say it enough. I mean it from the bottom of my heart that the way both of you have served Christ over the years, not just in ministry, but just in who you are and how you relate to people—the ways you think things through, the way you care for people genuinely—just the sincere devotion to Christ that is in both of your hearts has more of an impact than you could possibly know. And the consequences of that rumble on day after day in my life for Esther, for each of our five kids, your faithfulness to God matters. And it’s making a difference every single day that will last onto eternity. I think it’s far beyond what you know.

(00:58:16):

“Because you’ve been doing it for so long, you’re probably not even noticing it as much as others do; it’s just instinctive to you. You think about: ‘Oh, they need us to babysit the kids; we can do that,’ or ‘Oh, we’re going to speak; we want to encourage them,’—it’s just who you are; it’s just instinctive. You’re probably not even aware of how much of a blessing you’re being, because it’s habitual. It’s just how you function—with a heart of service and love toward others and honoring of Christ.

“The difference that that makes for me, for my family, and for so many others is incalculable. And only in heaven will the true measure of it be possible to see. So thank you. You’ve made my life a joy by being faithful to Christ. You’ve painted the target for me. I know how to live because I just say, ‘Okay, I want to follow the Lord and serve the Lord.’ And I’ve seen a model of that in you. Not that you’re perfect—none of us are perfect—but you’ve been a faithful model of serving Christ. So I just want to say, ‘Thank you,’ and ‘I love you both from the bottom of my heart.’”

Ray (00:59:26):

Oh gosh, that’s so sweet.

Jani: Take me home.

Ray: I think we’re done.

Ann (00:59:35):

You guys, that’s everything, isn’t it?

Ray: Oh, yes.

Jani: Oh, it is; it is.

Ann: It’s everything.

Jani (00:59:39):

It is that your kids love the Lord—everything. Thank you for that! Oh, my goodness!

Ann (00:59:46):

Well, this book is so rich. We didn’t even get into so many things: “Making Your Home a Foretaste of Heaven”; there are just so many chapters. There was so much underlined and highlighted. This is a book every parent/every home should read; because it’s inspiring, and it points us back to Jesus. If you’re thinking, “What is my next step?”—we said it at the beginning—“Surrender”— every day, it’s a re-surrender to God:—

Dave (01:00:15):

Amen.

Ann (01:00:16):

—”I can’t do it. I can’t do anything apart from You.”

Dave (01:00:18):

And after you get off your knees, go to a computer, your phone—whatever—go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click on the show notes. We’ll have this book there that you can buy: To the Tenth Generation. You’ll want to get it.

Thank you, guys. Man, what a day.

Jani (01:00:33):

What a privilege to be with you. We thank you.

Ray (01:00:34):

We just feel overwhelmed with gratitude to you.

Ann (01:00:37):

Yeah, we feel that.

Ray (01:00:38):

Well, thank you. And our dear listeners, who have allowed us into their day and into their life, we’re profoundly grateful.

Ann (01:00:50):

Hey, thanks for watching. If you liked this episode,—

Dave (01:00:53):

You better like it.

Ann (01:00:53):

—just hit that “Like” button.

Dave (01:00:55):

And we’d like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the “Subscribe”—

I can’t say the word, “subscribe”—hit the “Subscribe” button. I don’t think I can say this

word!

Ann: I can: “subscribe.”

Dave: Look at that! You say it so easily. “Subscribe”; there he goes!

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